Сложные эфиры в синтетических смазках. Вопросы к TomNJ

[Ё}I{ИК 399 563]

На ваши вопросы ответит Thomas Schafer.

 

 
38 лет работы в корпорации Hatco (в настоящее время это подразделение Chemtura/Lanxess). Последние 16 лет в Hatco занимал должность вице-президента по продажам и маркетингу в области синтетических смазочных материалов. Руководил исследованиями и разработками продуктов и усовершенствованием процессов, а также координировал производство и продажи с совместными предприятиями в Германии и Бразилии. Лично отвечал за коммерческую и военную авиационную продукцию в течение двадцати лет.
 
Tom американец и не знает русский язык, поэтому при формулировании вопросов, прошу по возможности использовать английский язык. Вы же можете воспользоваться Гугл-переводчиком (Вас много, а Томас у нас такой один, Sae20 c русскими корнями).
 
Вопросы задавайте любые, которые касаются именно синтетических масел и смазок.
Прошу учитывать временной лаг, личную жизнь человека и просто проявляйте уважение в любом общении.

Скрытый текст

 

Thomas Schafer will answer your questions.

Retired after 38 years at Hatco Corporation, a manufacturer and global leader in synthetic esters and synthetic lubricants (now a division of Chemtura/Lanxess). For the last 16 years at Hatco served as Vice President of Sales & Marketing, with global responsibilities in synthetic lubricants. He led product research and development and process improvement, and coordinated production and sales with joint ventures in Germany and Brazil. He was personally responsible for commercial and military aviation products for twenty years.
 
Tom does not know Russian, so when formulating questions, I ask you to use English if possible. You can use the Google translator (there are many of you, and Thomas is the only one with us, Sae20 with Russian roots).
 
Ask any questions that relate specifically to synthetic oils and greases.
Please take into account the time lag, the personal life of a person and just show respect in any communication.

 

 

Из-за чего происходит быстрое срабатывание TBN в маслах с эстерами

[Lumina 443]

TomNJ , What do you say about https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/   ?  Is it possible to believe in the rating of oils of this comrade? 

[TomNJ 447]

15 hours ago, ss333 said:

Does the oil filled in the engine at the factory have to be mineral based? How long does the ZDDP film form on a new engine part? How long can I use oil with esters in a new car?

 

No, it can be any non-polar base, including PAO & GTL . I mentioned mineral because most cars are factory filled with mostly mineral based oils (plus some PAO for 0W grades), at least in the USA, so they are broken in with non-polar oils that do not compete with the ZDDP during break-in .

 

I do not know how long it takes for the ZDDP film to form as it depends on a lot of conditions, especially load and temperature.  Many years ago I saw engine test results that showed it took two hours for the ZDDP to win the competition with the ester, but that was in a severe engine test with 100% diester based oil so the results do not translate to the real world.  Still it indicates that the ZDDP will eventually win.  I would use ester containing oils in a new engine if the oil was certified against the required specifications and approvals for my engine, which means it was tested and passed in test engines with new parts.

Изменено 14 апреля 2020 пользователем TomNJ

[Projector 7 197]

Good afternoon Thomas Schafer, tell me please, have you performed tests with fullerene C60-C70? Can they affect the oxidation of oil and reduce friction?

[TomNJ 447]

5 hours ago, Lumina said:

TomNJ  , What do you say about https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/    ? Is it possible to believe in the rating of oils of this comrade? 

 

I have not studied this work but have read many opinions of the work by people who know about oil testing, and their opinion is that the test method used is not correlated to real world engine conditions, and the test reproducibility does not statistically separate the oils.  I rely only on standardized bench and engine tests that have been scientifically correlated to real word engine performance and are chosen by the industry to be part of oil specifications.  I disregard other tests such as Falex, 4-Ball, and the "one arm bandit".

[SL1 3 960]

7 часов назад, СИНТЭКС сказал:

7 часов назад, Палтус сказал:

III группа это минералка. 

Не др конца соглашусь. Кряк - само собой, основа (сырьё) минеральная (нефть). А вот GTL из газа, причём в технологии присутствует синтез, поэтому с GTL, на мой взгляд, не всё однозначно на счёт «минеральности».

Более того, GTL  это смесь содержащая не только линейные углеводороды, как в обычном PCMO III гр, но и циклические.

Изменено 14 апреля 2020 пользователем SL1

[TomNJ 447]

13 minutes ago, Projector said:

Good afternoon Thomas Schafer, tell me please, have you performed tests with fullerene C60-C70? Can they affect the oxidation of oil and reduce friction?

 

Good morning!   I have not performed any tests with these products, nor have I seen test results in finished PCMOs in engine tests, so I do not know how they perform.

[СИНТЭКС 12 732]

2 минуты назад, TomNJ сказал:

I disregard other tests such as Falex, 4-Ball, and the "one arm bandit".

What do you think abt MTM and HFRR?

[СИНТЭКС 12 732]

1 минуту назад, SL1 сказал:

Более того, GTL  это смесь содержащая не только линейные углеводороды, как в обычном PCMO III гр, но и циклические.

III гр. тоже может содержать циклические у/в, другое дело, что они, как правило, отсутствуют, либо присутствуют в очень небольшом количестве.

[TomNJ 447]

20 minutes ago, СИНТЭКС said:

What do you think abt MTM and HFRR?

 

I have no experience with these tests and do not know if they have been correlated to actual engine performance.

[СИНТЭКС 12 732]

17 минут назад, TomNJ сказал:

I have no experience with these tests and do not know if they have been correlated to actual engine performance.

Croda and Italmatch use it.

[Poziom1989 10]

@TomnjYou know some technologies that increase polarity in oil based on PAO, besides ester, AN etc.

[SL1 3 960]

2 часа назад, СИНТЭКС сказал:

2 часа назад, SL1 сказал:

Более того, GTL  это смесь содержащая не только линейные углеводороды, как в обычном PCMO III гр, но и циклические.

III гр. тоже может содержать циклические у/в, другое дело, что они, как правило, отсутствуют, либо присутствуют в очень небольшом количестве.

Нафтеновые масла третьей группы есть и смазки на их основе тоже можно купить, а вот в PCMO чтоб циклический гидрокрекинг III группы лили не встречал.

[СИНТЭКС 12 732]

SL1 Я не говорю, что добавляют. Они образуются в многоступенчатом процессе «гидрокрекинга». Просто доля циклических (как правило, моноциклических у/в) очень мала. Тут ведь не только от технологии, но и от сырья много зависит.

[SAE20 12 696]

12.04.2020 в 18:03, TomNJ сказал:

Mixing oils has some risks as some additives may be incompatible or reduce performance. 

 

Thank you  for all your honest and well-considered answers for this subject, such as: "What do you think. Which is still better? Esters vs AN . And why?" "How do you feel about mixing motor oils ?" (other) etc.

 

It sheds important light on our business when we can have honest, adult-to-adult conversations about these questions, so I hope you have offered some useful compass points. There were also many practical questions, asking for definition on the facts as you move to product-focused attention. I have happily offered a view here too, but I want to stress that these are the conversations that should be happening across the whole knowledge – and at all levels. Rapidly moving to the ‘Deny’ state in mixing oils constantly opens up spaces where there are no defined answers yet, so please bear with me -
The polar part is made up of metallic and nonmetallic derivatives. So which ones do you think are more likely to be incompatible?
PCMO makers have enabled a PCMO and its additives to be fully soluble and compatible in any other PCMO and its additives. What do you think about this statement?
 

[TomNJ 447]

5 hours ago, СИНТЭКС said:

Croda and Italmatch use it.

 

Chemical companies often use in-house tests for their base oils.  In my opinion, what matters is industry specification tests on finished oils that correlate to actual engine performance.  Other tests such as these are still useful for screening formulations during development and before investing in expensive engine testing.