Сложные эфиры в синтетических смазках. Вопросы к TomNJ

[Ё}I{ИК 399 563]

На ваши вопросы ответит Thomas Schafer.

 

 
38 лет работы в корпорации Hatco (в настоящее время это подразделение Chemtura/Lanxess). Последние 16 лет в Hatco занимал должность вице-президента по продажам и маркетингу в области синтетических смазочных материалов. Руководил исследованиями и разработками продуктов и усовершенствованием процессов, а также координировал производство и продажи с совместными предприятиями в Германии и Бразилии. Лично отвечал за коммерческую и военную авиационную продукцию в течение двадцати лет.
 
Tom американец и не знает русский язык, поэтому при формулировании вопросов, прошу по возможности использовать английский язык. Вы же можете воспользоваться Гугл-переводчиком (Вас много, а Томас у нас такой один, Sae20 c русскими корнями).
 
Вопросы задавайте любые, которые касаются именно синтетических масел и смазок.
Прошу учитывать временной лаг, личную жизнь человека и просто проявляйте уважение в любом общении.

Скрытый текст

 

Thomas Schafer will answer your questions.

Retired after 38 years at Hatco Corporation, a manufacturer and global leader in synthetic esters and synthetic lubricants (now a division of Chemtura/Lanxess). For the last 16 years at Hatco served as Vice President of Sales & Marketing, with global responsibilities in synthetic lubricants. He led product research and development and process improvement, and coordinated production and sales with joint ventures in Germany and Brazil. He was personally responsible for commercial and military aviation products for twenty years.
 
Tom does not know Russian, so when formulating questions, I ask you to use English if possible. You can use the Google translator (there are many of you, and Thomas is the only one with us, Sae20 with Russian roots).
 
Ask any questions that relate specifically to synthetic oils and greases.
Please take into account the time lag, the personal life of a person and just show respect in any communication.

 

 

Из-за чего происходит быстрое срабатывание TBN в маслах с эстерами

[torcon 64 513]

TomNJ да, есть десятки компаний которые производят эстеры. Но если мы посмотрим какие эстеры добавляются в моторные масла. То эти эстеры должны быть POE, они должны обладать определенной вязкостью от 3cst до 8cst. И окажется что в моторных маслах используются эстеры всего нескольких производителей. Exxon Mobil Esterex, Croda и т.д. Разве нет?  Ведь эти компании как Infineum в присадках или SK corp в базовых маслах, поделили рынок и никого в него не пускают... 

 

Мы много слышали хорошего о AN - алкилированных нафталинах (Synesstic 5 and 8). Но вся информация исходит от производителя ExxonMobil/Infineum. Эти производители в своих документах всегда сравнивают свои AN с эстерами. 

Вопрос: Как вы считаете. Что все таки лучше? Эстеры vs AN. И почему? 

 

Спасибо 

[TomNJ 447]

15 hours ago, SYNTEX said:

Maybe do you mean only examples with “red label” of status?

 

Yes, the ones with the red dot status are the worse and can cause damage to engines. The ones with the orange dot status had something wrong but were deemed not too serious, such as a label issue or a minor out of specification result.  If you click the "Status" tab above the color dots it will change the order of the list with the green dots first, then the red, then the orange.  Just scroll down to the reds and oranges.

Изменено 13 апреля 2020 пользователем TomNJ

[TomNJ 447]

6 hours ago, torcon said:

TomNJ  yes, there are dozens of companies that produce esters. But if we look at what esters are added to engine oils. That these esters must be POE, they must have a certain viscosity from 3cst to 8cst. And it turns out that only a few manufacturers use esters in motor oils. Exxon Mobil Esterex, Croda, etc. Is not it so?  After all, these companies like Infineum in additives or SK corp in base oils divided the market and do not let anyone into it ... 

 

We heard a lot of good things about AN - alkylated naphthalenes (Synesstic 5 and 8). But all the information comes from the manufacturer ExxonMobil / Infineum. In their documents, these manufacturers always compare their ANs with esters. 

Question: What do you think. Which is still better? Esters vs AN . And why? 

 

thanks 

 

Yes you are correct that if we look only at ester makers who make POEs in the motor oil range, the number of ester companies is reduced, but still significant globally.  These include, ExxonMobil, Calumet, Lanxess (formally Hatco), BASF, Croda, Nippon Oil, OleFina, Zschimmer & Schwarz, Nyco, Olean, Lonza, and others.  I know that POEs were made in Ufa, Russia and in China some 20+ years ago as I visited those plants back then.  At the time their production was for aviation, especially military.

 

ExxonMobil decided to promote ANs over esters some 15-20 years ago and switched to ANs in their Mobil 1 formulations (combined with Group III+ and PAO.  They claim technical advantages in hydrolytic stability, thermal stability, and a synergy with PAOs.  ANs are less polar than POEs and so less aggressive on seals, but are sufficient to dissolve additives.  Comparing POE of the same viscosity as AN (5 cSt), POE has a much higher Viscosity Index (135 vs 74), much lower Pour Point (-70°C vs -39°C), much higher Flash Point (255°C vs 222°C), much lower Noack Volatility (3% vs 13%), and higher lubricity.

 

Considering the low amounts of ANs and POEs that are used in PCMOs, none of this matters.  Both products work well in dissolving additives and conditioning seals in PAO as they are intended.  In high percentages, which one to choose depends on the application.  For example, I would never use ANs in jet engine oils but they may be fine in some industrial oils.

[Bonker 2 328]

TomNJ Below are 3 photos of the MTM 3 oil test on the popular ACEA C3 package. There are different POE and ESTERS that spoil AW in MID SAPS packages, and there are some that don't. Can you comment on these charts? What is the optimal amount of POE in the system? 5, 10, 15, 20?

 

 

 

SRV WEAR TEST REF OIL GIII C3

 

 

 

SRV WEAR TEST OIL WITH POE C3

 

 

 

SRV WEAR TEST OIL WITH RIGHT ESTER C3

 

 

 

 

[Bonker 2 328]

12.04.2020 в 17:59, TomNJ сказал:

 

Esters are expensive, mineral oils are cheap, and automotive oils are competitive.  Therefore esters are only added to automotive oils if they are needed for technical reasons.  The most common technical reasons are to improve additive solubility and to soften and swell seals, and to lesser degrees to reduce volatility and improve lubricity.  Esters are needed in pure PAO formulations because PAOs have no polarity and so have poor additive solubility, and they tend to shrink and harden seals.  Esters correct these problems with PAOs.

 

Groups I, II, and III base oils have some polarity because they have some ring compounds.  While their polarity decreases with more hydrocracking, there is still enough to dissolve the additives and condition the seals.  Therefore the expensive esters are not needed in these formulations.

 

 

does it make sense to add 5% POE to a recipe with 75% VHVI? Or is it marketing?

[Bonker 2 328]

21 час назад, TomNJ сказал:

 

Adding ester to a Group III can improve the oil, but it is not needed to dissolve additives and balance seals.  Ester is needed for PAOs but not GTLs.  While some small boutique oil companies add ester to improve their oils and charge a higher price, most larger oil companies will not add expensive ingredients that are not needed to pass the specifications they seek to claim.  Since 99.9% of oil buyers have no idea what an ester is, it does not help their sales.

 

If I was formulating an oil for my car I would add a proper POE at 20-30% in order to obtain the cleaning, volatility, and lubricity effects, but only if the formulation also contained an equal or more amount of PAO to counter the seal softening effects of the POE.  The rest of the base oil could be Group III.

 

Tell me, is the recipe good if PAO 70% + POE 10%?

[TomNJ 447]

5 hours ago, Bonker said:

TomNJ Below are 3 photos of the MTM 3 oil test on the popular ACEA C3 package. There are different POE and ESTERS that spoil AW in MID SAPS packages, and there are some that don't. Can you comment on these charts? What is the optimal amount of POE in the system? 5, 10, 15, 20?

SRV WEAR TEST REF OIL GIII C3

SRV WEAR TEST OIL WITH POE C3

SRV WEAR TEST OIL WITH RIGHT ESTER C3

 

 

 

The photos do not identify the esters.  A highly polar ester in a high percentage can interfere with and slow down the ability of ZDDP to form a protective film because they compete for the metal surface.  This can increase wear, but only on new parts that have not been broken-in, such as test specimens.  If the parts have run first with a mineral oil containing ZDDP and the protective film has formed (as in a car engine), then the ester does not interfere with the ZDDP.

 

The optimal amount of POE depends on what you want to achieve with the POE, the type of POE used, the type and ratio of other base oils, the engine and its operating environment, and the additives.

[TomNJ 447]

5 hours ago, Bonker said:

 

does it make sense to add 5% POE to a recipe with 75% VHVI? Or is it marketing?

 

It makes sense if there is a good technical or marketing reason.  POE at 5% can help dissolve some additives if they are not dissolving completely in the VHVI used, or if seal swell is needed in the formulation.  Or a company can add 5% POE so they can make a marketing claim such as "based on jet engine base oil", but this is rare.

[TomNJ 447]

5 hours ago, Bonker said:

 

Tell me, is the recipe good if PAO 70% + POE 10%?

 

POE at 10% will help with additive solubility and seal swell, but whether it is enough depends on which PAO, which POE, and the balance of the formulation.  With that high amount of PAO I would be inclined to use more POE but how much would be guided by test results.  I would test at 10%, 20%, and 30% and see which performs best in the testing.

[СИНТЭКС 12 732]

4 минуты назад, TomNJ сказал:

the parts have run first with a mineral oil containing ZDDP and the protective film has formed (as in a car engine), then the ester does not interfere with the ZDDP.

But all the additives makers say that esters always compete with ZDDP for the surface in friction pairs regardless of the presence of a formed protective film. Where is the truth? For example, comparison with AN of Exxon:

[Bonker 2 328]

15 минут назад, TomNJ сказал:

 

POE at 10% will help with additive solubility and seal swell, but whether it is enough depends on which PAO, which POE, and the balance of the formulation.  With that high amount of PAO I would be inclined to use more POE but how much would be guided by test results.  I would test at 10%, 20%, and 30% and see which performs best in the testing.

 

The composition in our oils: (PAO 4+PAO 6) - 70% from Mobil + POE 10% from one of these companies: Calumet, Lanxess (formally Hatco), BASF, Croda, Nippon Oil, OleFina, Zschimmer & Schwarz, Nyco, Olean, Lonza (we do not name a specific company, because an interesting application was made for us). How Do you like this recipe? What tests do I need to pass?

 

And immediately question. Besides MOBIL, who else produces AN IN Europe and what is the current cost per 1 ton?

[TomNJ 447]

16 hours ago, СИНТЭКС said:

But all the additives makers say that esters always compete with ZDDP for the surface in friction pairs regardless of the presence of a formed protective film. Where is the truth? For example, comparison with AN of Exxon:

 

I have seen engine tests that say otherwise - a lot depends on the specific ester and other ingredients.  Our company (Hatco) formulated the first synthetic PCMO to gain SAE approval back in 1972 and it was based 100% on ester.  In fact we sold 100% ester based PCMOs, diesel oils, and gear oils for 15 years and did not experience wear problems from the field.

Изменено 14 апреля 2020 пользователем TomNJ

[ss333 1 175]

Масло залитое в двигатель на заводе, должно быть на минеральной основе? Как долго формируется пленка ZDDP на новой детали двигателя? Через какое время можно использовать масло с эстерами в новом автомобиле?

Изменено 13 апреля 2020 пользователем ss333

[TomNJ 447]

1 hour ago, Bonker said:

 

The composition in our oils: (PAO 4+PAO 6) - 70% from Mobil + POE 10% from one of these companies: Calumet, Lanxess (formally Hatco), BASF, Croda, Nippon Oil, OleFina, Zschimmer & Schwarz, Nyco, Olean, Lonza (we do not name a specific company, because an interesting application was made for us). How Do you like this recipe? What tests do I need to pass?

 

And immediately question. Besides MOBIL, who else produces AN IN Europe and what is the current cost per 1 ton?

 

I have no problem with 70% PAO and 10% POE.  Ideally the optimum ratios should be scientifically determined through testing, indeed the entire formulation should be based on engine testing, but that gets very expensive.  To see if the 10% POE is enough to correct the PAO you should test the finished oil in the seal compatibility tests required by the specification approval you are seeking, and also make sure the additives stay in solution at various temperatures.

 

ANs are also produced in the USA by King Industries.  I do not know if there are producers in Europe, or the cost.

[СИНТЭКС 12 732]

6 часов назад, ss333 сказал:

Масло залитое в двигатель на заводе, должно быть на минеральной основе?

Выше имелось ввиду под «минеральным» (не 4 и 5 группы).