Сложные эфиры в синтетических смазках. Вопросы к TomNJ

[Ё}I{ИК 399 563]

На ваши вопросы ответит Thomas Schafer.

 

 
38 лет работы в корпорации Hatco (в настоящее время это подразделение Chemtura/Lanxess). Последние 16 лет в Hatco занимал должность вице-президента по продажам и маркетингу в области синтетических смазочных материалов. Руководил исследованиями и разработками продуктов и усовершенствованием процессов, а также координировал производство и продажи с совместными предприятиями в Германии и Бразилии. Лично отвечал за коммерческую и военную авиационную продукцию в течение двадцати лет.
 
Tom американец и не знает русский язык, поэтому при формулировании вопросов, прошу по возможности использовать английский язык. Вы же можете воспользоваться Гугл-переводчиком (Вас много, а Томас у нас такой один, Sae20 c русскими корнями).
 
Вопросы задавайте любые, которые касаются именно синтетических масел и смазок.
Прошу учитывать временной лаг, личную жизнь человека и просто проявляйте уважение в любом общении.

Скрытый текст

 

Thomas Schafer will answer your questions.

Retired after 38 years at Hatco Corporation, a manufacturer and global leader in synthetic esters and synthetic lubricants (now a division of Chemtura/Lanxess). For the last 16 years at Hatco served as Vice President of Sales & Marketing, with global responsibilities in synthetic lubricants. He led product research and development and process improvement, and coordinated production and sales with joint ventures in Germany and Brazil. He was personally responsible for commercial and military aviation products for twenty years.
 
Tom does not know Russian, so when formulating questions, I ask you to use English if possible. You can use the Google translator (there are many of you, and Thomas is the only one with us, Sae20 with Russian roots).
 
Ask any questions that relate specifically to synthetic oils and greases.
Please take into account the time lag, the personal life of a person and just show respect in any communication.

 

 

Из-за чего происходит быстрое срабатывание TBN в маслах с эстерами

[TomNJ 447]

8 minutes ago, СИНТЭКС said:

what is the highest concentration of esters did you saw in RL?

 

I do not know the Redline formulations and have not seen a GC on them.  In the past they claimed their oils had high amounts of POE but they did not say how much, and the formulations may have changed.  If one wishes to add some Redline oil to increase the ester content in their oil, I suggest adding one that shows a large ester absorbance in FTIR.

[Ё}I{ИК 399 563]

3 минуты назад, TomNJ сказал:

Sorry, I do not understand this translation.

Цитата

так собеседники скрывают свой флуд и офтоп.

Можете не заглядывать под спойлер

Russian internet slang. So a person hides messages off topic. You can ignore hidden questions. 

[СИНТЭКС 12 731]

7 минут назад, TomNJ сказал:

I would add a proper POE at 20-30% in order to obtain the cleaning, volatility, and lubricity effects, but only if the formulation also contained an equal or more amount of PAO to counter the seal softening effects of the POE.  The rest of the base oil could be Group III.

but the selected effects are not mutually exclusive, why not add POE to GTL for

13 минут назад, TomNJ сказал:

obtain the cleaning, volatility, and lubricity effects

even if PAO isn’t in the recipe...

P.S. the question of cost is not taken

 

[TomNJ 447]

14 minutes ago, Ё}I{ИК said:

You are not the first to advise using ready-made oils for the mix. How do you feel about mixing motor oils with motorcycle oils (4T)?

 

Sorry, I have never formulated a motorcycle oil or had any interest in them, so I do not know what the formulations look like.  In general, I do not add anything to a balanced and approved motor oil unless I have an engine problem and know that the additive will help.  Mixing oils has some risks as some additives may be incompatible or reduce performance.  One should know what they are adding, have a known good reason, and have a reasonable expectation the the additive will help.  Experimenting with the oil can be fun and educational, but If one wants to experiment with their expensive engine they should research first, watch closely, and run some UOAs.

[СИНТЭКС 12 731]

9 минут назад, TomNJ сказал:

I do not know the Redline formulations and have not seen a GC on them.  In the past they claimed their oils had high amounts of POE but they did not say how much, and the formulations may have changed.

could you please give an estimate concentration based on your qualifications and experience

[Alex 34]

TomNJ Hello

You propose - using complex ester motor oil as an additive
.
If the engine is fully filled with complex ester oil - what are the disadvantages of using ?

[TomNJ 447]

6 minutes ago, СИНТЭКС said:

but the selected effects are not mutually exclusive, why not add POE to GTL for

even if PAO isn’t in the recipe...

P.S. the question of cost is not taken

 

 

Because PAO has no polarity and will counter balance the softening and swelling effects of POEs on the seals.  GTLs are better at dissolving additives and milder on seals so esters are not needed.  Adding some ester to GTL will provide benefits and I would do so if I was formulating with one and cost was not a factor.  With most major oil blenders, however, cost is a very large factor.  They just need to meet their target specifications and obtain their target approvals, and if they can do so without an expensive ester they generally do.  Most people will not pay more for a better oil if they do not understand why it is better and a cheaper oil meets the same specifications and has the same approvals.  Of course people like us who know about oil will pay more, but we are a very tiny slice of the market.  There are no "Brownie Points" for going beyond the specifications in a commodity market. 

[СИНТЭКС 12 731]

1 минуту назад, TomNJ сказал:

Because PAO has no polarity and will counter balance the softening and swelling effects of POEs on the seals. 

Yes, we know.

3 минуты назад, TomNJ сказал:

Adding some ester to GTL will provide benefits and I would do so if I was formulating with one and cost was not a factor.

7 минут назад, TomNJ сказал:

Most people will not pay more for a better oil if they do not understand why it is better

Thank you, that's what I wanted to make sure...

[TomNJ 447]

15 minutes ago, СИНТЭКС said:

could you please give an estimate concentration based on your qualifications and experience

 

I honestly have no idea and it would be a pure guess.  Hopefully it would at least be 10-20% if they are making the claim and are honorable people, perhaps much more.  I knew the original founders of Redline and started selling them in 1979.  They were honorable people, and I even considered working for them, but they are retired and I never met the new owners. 

[СИНТЭКС 12 731]

TomNJ thank you for your opinion

Why I asked: on our forum there are people who believe that RL almost 80% consists of POE

[TomNJ 447]

21 minutes ago, Alex said:

TomNJ Hello

You propose - using complex ester motor oil as an additive
.
If the engine is fully filled with complex ester oil - what are the disadvantages of using ?

 

If I understand the translation correctly, you are asking what are the disadvantages of using a fully formulated motor oil that is based entirely or mostly on ester.  There is no disadvantage if the oil has been fully tested and passed the required specifications and approvals for your engine.  These specifications will test for seal compatibility and assure that the finished balance oil is suitable.  Without the testing and approvals the risk gets higher as the ester content gets higher.

[Alex 34]

6 минут назад, TomNJ сказал:

 

If I understand the translation correctly, you are asking what are the disadvantages of using a fully formulated motor oil that is based entirely or mostly on ester.  There is no disadvantage if the oil has been fully tested and passed the required specifications and approvals for your engine.  These specifications will test for seal compatibility and assure that the finished balance oil is suitable.  Without the testing and approvals the risk gets higher as the ester content gets higher.

You understood correctly.
I meant oils like redline, which have conformity but not specification.

[СИНТЭКС 12 731]

1 минуту назад, Alex сказал:

I meant oils like redline, which have conformity

 

17 минут назад, TomNJ сказал:

Hopefully it would at least be 10-20% if they are making the claim and are honorable people, perhaps much more. 

[TomNJ 447]

12 minutes ago, СИНТЭКС said:

TomNJ thank you for your opinion

Why I asked: on our forum there are people who believe that RL almost 80% consists of POE

 

No, not even close.  Maybe in the old days but not today.

 

Here is a list of their products with links to their SDSs: https://www.redlineoil.com/technical-info   Section 3 of the SDS must list any hazardous ingredients.  The few I looked at show large amounts of PAO and Group III.  The SDS must list the Group III which shows as "Distillates, petroleum, hydrotreated heavy paraffinic", and the PAO which shows as "1-Dodecene, Homopolymer, Hydrogenated".  There is no need to list the esters because they are not considered hazardous.

[Alex 34]

2 минуты назад, СИНТЭКС сказал:

 

Заинтересовал момент ,почему была рекомендация RL как добавки,а не полной заливки. Может есть минусы какие то у таких масел в авто на каждый день.