Сложные эфиры в синтетических смазках. Вопросы к TomNJ

[Ё}I{ИК 399 563]

На ваши вопросы ответит Thomas Schafer.

 

 
38 лет работы в корпорации Hatco (в настоящее время это подразделение Chemtura/Lanxess). Последние 16 лет в Hatco занимал должность вице-президента по продажам и маркетингу в области синтетических смазочных материалов. Руководил исследованиями и разработками продуктов и усовершенствованием процессов, а также координировал производство и продажи с совместными предприятиями в Германии и Бразилии. Лично отвечал за коммерческую и военную авиационную продукцию в течение двадцати лет.
 
Tom американец и не знает русский язык, поэтому при формулировании вопросов, прошу по возможности использовать английский язык. Вы же можете воспользоваться Гугл-переводчиком (Вас много, а Томас у нас такой один, Sae20 c русскими корнями).
 
Вопросы задавайте любые, которые касаются именно синтетических масел и смазок.
Прошу учитывать временной лаг, личную жизнь человека и просто проявляйте уважение в любом общении.

Скрытый текст

 

Thomas Schafer will answer your questions.

Retired after 38 years at Hatco Corporation, a manufacturer and global leader in synthetic esters and synthetic lubricants (now a division of Chemtura/Lanxess). For the last 16 years at Hatco served as Vice President of Sales & Marketing, with global responsibilities in synthetic lubricants. He led product research and development and process improvement, and coordinated production and sales with joint ventures in Germany and Brazil. He was personally responsible for commercial and military aviation products for twenty years.
 
Tom does not know Russian, so when formulating questions, I ask you to use English if possible. You can use the Google translator (there are many of you, and Thomas is the only one with us, Sae20 with Russian roots).
 
Ask any questions that relate specifically to synthetic oils and greases.
Please take into account the time lag, the personal life of a person and just show respect in any communication.

 

 

Из-за чего происходит быстрое срабатывание TBN в маслах с эстерами

[torcon 64 286]

TomNJ какие такие другие POE используются в моторных маслах?  Ведь их природа одна и всего несколько производителей эстеровых базовых масел для lubricants. Конечно о процентном содержании эстеров по FTIR судить нельзя - мы все это понимаем. Но о том, есть эстеры в масле или нет, судить вроде бы можно. Я не видел присадок к моторным маслам, которые бы заменили эстеры на графике IR. Когда пик волны на 1760 высотой 2.5-3.5 - это не какие то другие присадки...  Это эстеры.

 

GC это конечно хорошо. Но у нас не везде такие приборы есть и не все умеют с ними работать. Их используют для определения количества топлива в масле и разных промышленных тестов. 

[Ё}I{ИК 399 563]

torcon а разве в наших лабах нет хроматографов? Он есть даже в лабораториях СЭС, или как они сейчас - Роспотребнадзор? В Рязани точно они есть, к ним не обратиться с химией, они только с пищевыми работают. В лабе НПЗ на ТНК в Рязани есть, но сейчас весь завод на карантине вахтовым методом работает - 14 дней вахта внутри периметра (там заражённые). ИК-спектр мне всегда казался неточным.

[СИНТЭКС 12 731]

1 час назад, torcon сказал:

какие такие другие POE используются в моторных маслах?  Ведь их природа одна и всего несколько производителей эстеровых базовых масел для lubricants.

Их не мало (эстеров) и не мало производителей (десятки). Природа и суть процесса этерификации очень схожи для разных эстеров, но сырьё может быть совсем разным (многоосновные кислоты разного порядка - C5...C10 и более) технологии могут отличаться. 

[skorp777 12 234]

TomNJ There are a lot of РAO esters oils, but we didn 't meet oil on hydrocracking or Group 1 and 2 with ester supplements? What's the reason? Is it just marketing, or are there technical reasons? Or are there such motor and transmission oils for PCMO? If so, can we have examples?

Есть очень много масел РАО+ эстеры, но нам не встречались масла на гидрокрекинге или 1-й и 2-й группе с добавками эстеров? В чем причина? Это просто маркетинг, или есть технические причины?Или такие моторные и трансмиссионые масла для PCMO все же есть? Если да, то можно примеры?

[TomNJ 447]

9 hours ago, torcon said:

TomNJ  what other POEs are used in motor oils?  After all, their nature is one and only a few manufacturers of ester base oils for lubricants. Of course, the percentage of esters in FTIR cannot be judged - we all understand this. But it seems to be possible to judge whether there are esters in oil or not. I have not seen engine oil additives that would replace the esters on the IR chart. When the peak of the wave at 1760 with a height of 2.5-3.5 is not some other additives ...  These are esters.

 

GC is certainly good. But we do not have such devices everywhere and not everyone knows how to work with them. They are used to determine the amount of fuel in oil and various industrial tests. 

 

As Sintex said, there are dozens of ester manufacturers and hundreds of different esters. Out company alone made some 80 different esters including about 50 POEs. To make POEs we used four different polyol alcohols, each reacting with between two and six fatty acids. And we used 10 different fatty acids, so you can imagine the number of combinations possible. In addition we could oligomerize the esters to create even more. The acids and alcohols each contributed different properties to the ester, so we selected and mixed them according to what properties the application needed. They are "designer molecules"!

 

Here is a paper I wrote that gives more detail on the types of esters and what properties they offer.  https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/esters-in-synthetic-lubricants/

 

I agree that if there is a large absorbance at 1760 in FTIR then the oil likely contains esters as base oils. Unfortunately we cannot see what type and how much. This is why GC is so much more useful. If you have access to any GC graphs for fuel dilution or volatility, it may be possible to also see the base oils depending on what conditions the test was run.

Изменено 12 апреля 2020 пользователем TomNJ

[TomNJ 447]

6 hours ago, skorp777 said:

TomNJ  There are a lot of PAO esters oils, but we didn 't meet oil on hydrocracking or Group 1 and 2 with ester supplements? What's the reason? Is it just marketing, or are there technical reasons? Or are there such motor and transmission oils for PCMO? If so, can we have examples?

There are a lot of RAO + ester oils, but we have not seen oils in hydrocracking or in the 1st and 2nd group with the addition of esters? What is the reason? Is it just marketing, or is there a technical reason? Or are there any such motor and gear oils for PCMO? If so, can you give examples?

 

Esters are expensive, mineral oils are cheap, and automotive oils are competitive.  Therefore esters are only added to automotive oils if they are needed for technical reasons.  The most common technical reasons are to improve additive solubility and to soften and swell seals, and to lesser degrees to reduce volatility and improve lubricity.  Esters are needed in pure PAO formulations because PAOs have no polarity and so have poor additive solubility, and they tend to shrink and harden seals.  Esters correct these problems with PAOs.

 

Groups I, II, and III base oils have some polarity because they have some ring compounds.  While their polarity decreases with more hydrocracking, there is still enough to dissolve the additives and condition the seals.  Therefore the expensive esters are not needed in these formulations.

 

[Valery... 1 253]

Скрытый текст

Похоже скоро вместо вопроса "Какие ++ я получу, добавив ПОЭ в масло?"   будут спрашивать " Не станет ли хуже?"

 

[СИНТЭКС 12 731]

48 минут назад, TomNJ сказал:

Therefore the expensive esters are not needed in these formulations.

If I correctly understand you oil on III groupe + esters will not have the advantage over III gr. w/o esters? And it makes no sense to add them to HC and GTL?

[СИНТЭКС 12 731]

Valery... 

Скрытый текст

Косвенно, об этом уже начали писать в соответствующей теме ещё прошлым летом. Но не стоит рассчитывать, что всё изменится кардинально. Улучшения или ухудшения не будут очень заметными, если не превышать разумные дозировки.

 

[TomNJ 447]

2 hours ago, Valery... said:

  Hide contents

It seems soon instead of the question "What ++ will I get by adding POE to the oil?" they will ask, "Will it get worse?"

 

 

Not sure why some posts are labeled "Reveal Hidden Contents".  Why is content hidden?

 

POEs have a slow cleaning effect and can improve lubricity and volatility.  In general, POEs have half the Noack volatility of PAOs of the same viscosity.  However, adding small amounts of ester will give small results.  Adding too much can dilute the additives and cause leaking seals.  Much depends on which ester, as well as how much.  If you do not know the chemistry of the POE I would not exceed 10%.  Best to add a Redline oil that is known to have a high amount of POE from FTIR since this has an additive package and is balanced.

[ModeratorSigma 6 942]

TomNJ так собеседники скрывают свой флуд и офтоп.

Можете не заглядывать под спойлер

[СИНТЭКС 12 731]

6 минут назад, TomNJ сказал:

Best to add a Redline oil that is known to have a high amount of POE from FTIR since this has an additive package and is balanced.

what is the highest concentration of esters did you saw in RL?

[Ё}I{ИК 399 563]

5 минут назад, TomNJ сказал:

Not sure why some posts are labeled "Reveal Hidden Contents".  Why is content hidden?

Someone is shy, someone does not want to see a long text. Hide is everyone’s private affair. Russians have their own cockroaches in their heads. Tom, don’t worry.

8 минут назад, TomNJ сказал:

Best to add a Redline oil that is known to have a high amount of POE from FTIR since this has an additive package and is balanced.

You are not the first to advise using ready-made oils for the mix. How do you feel about mixing motor oils with motorcycle oils (4T)?

[TomNJ 447]

1 hour ago, СИНТЭКС said:

If I correctly understand you oil on III groupe + esters will not have the advantage over III gr. w / o esters? And it makes no sense to add them to HC and GTL ?

 

Adding ester to a Group III can improve the oil, but it is not needed to dissolve additives and balance seals.  Ester is needed for PAOs but not GTLs.  While some small boutique oil companies add ester to improve their oils and charge a higher price, most larger oil companies will not add expensive ingredients that are not needed to pass the specifications they seek to claim.  Since 99.9% of oil buyers have no idea what an ester is, it does not help their sales.

 

If I was formulating an oil for my car I would add a proper POE at 20-30% in order to obtain the cleaning, volatility, and lubricity effects, but only if the formulation also contained an equal or more amount of PAO to counter the seal softening effects of the POE.  The rest of the base oil could be Group III.

[TomNJ 447]

10 minutes ago, ModeratorSigma said:

TomNJ  so the interlocutors hide their flood and offtopic.

You can not look under the spoiler

 

Sorry, I do not understand this translation.  When I click the "Reveal Hidden Contents" button I can see the contents.  Can others do that as well?  Can I reply to the post, and will others see my reply?