Сложные эфиры в синтетических смазках. Вопросы к TomNJ

[Ё}I{ИК 399 563]

На ваши вопросы ответит Thomas Schafer.

 

 
38 лет работы в корпорации Hatco (в настоящее время это подразделение Chemtura/Lanxess). Последние 16 лет в Hatco занимал должность вице-президента по продажам и маркетингу в области синтетических смазочных материалов. Руководил исследованиями и разработками продуктов и усовершенствованием процессов, а также координировал производство и продажи с совместными предприятиями в Германии и Бразилии. Лично отвечал за коммерческую и военную авиационную продукцию в течение двадцати лет.
 
Tom американец и не знает русский язык, поэтому при формулировании вопросов, прошу по возможности использовать английский язык. Вы же можете воспользоваться Гугл-переводчиком (Вас много, а Томас у нас такой один, Sae20 c русскими корнями).
 
Вопросы задавайте любые, которые касаются именно синтетических масел и смазок.
Прошу учитывать временной лаг, личную жизнь человека и просто проявляйте уважение в любом общении.

Скрытый текст

 

Thomas Schafer will answer your questions.

Retired after 38 years at Hatco Corporation, a manufacturer and global leader in synthetic esters and synthetic lubricants (now a division of Chemtura/Lanxess). For the last 16 years at Hatco served as Vice President of Sales & Marketing, with global responsibilities in synthetic lubricants. He led product research and development and process improvement, and coordinated production and sales with joint ventures in Germany and Brazil. He was personally responsible for commercial and military aviation products for twenty years.
 
Tom does not know Russian, so when formulating questions, I ask you to use English if possible. You can use the Google translator (there are many of you, and Thomas is the only one with us, Sae20 with Russian roots).
 
Ask any questions that relate specifically to synthetic oils and greases.
Please take into account the time lag, the personal life of a person and just show respect in any communication.

 

 

Из-за чего происходит быстрое срабатывание TBN в маслах с эстерами

[Valery... 1 253]

fareastwood , спасибо. 4T oil это масло для авто? У меня ПОЕ для холодильников. Becool BC POE-32.

[СИНТЭКС 12 732]

Valery... Можете смело опираться на данные, которые дал @fareastwood

[TomNJ 447]

2 hours ago, Valery... said:

fareastwood  , thanks. 4T oil is car oil? I have a POE for refrigerators. Becool BC POE-32.

 

POEs for refrigeration are designed for maximum miscibility with the refrigerant gases.  Since POEs are necessary with HFCs, the seals would likely be changed to be compatible with the POE.  The lower viscosity refrigeration POEs up to ISO 32 would usually have an NPI of about 30 to 50.  Higher viscosity oils like ISO 68 to ISO 100 usually have an NPI from 60 to 100.

[Fredy 129]

Здесь говорилось, что можно к любому маслу добавить RedLine для улучшения. А как происходит микс масел между  (PAO+Ester+HC)+(HC+POE ISO68 Errecom)

Производитель базового масла обоих масел(PAO, HC) один и тот же.

Интересует возможность расслоения ил выпадения в осадок масел?

[TomNJ 447]

On 4/23/2020 at 3:22 PM, Fredy said:

It said here that you can add RedLine to any oil for improvement. And how does the mix of oils happen between ( PAO + Ester + HC) + (HC + POE ISO68 Errecom)

The manufacturer of the base oil of both oils ( PAO , HC) is the same.

Are you interested in the possibility of separation of sludge or precipitation of oils?

 

To the best of my knowledge from their SDSs and claims, the Red Line oils contain PAO, POE, and/or Group III base oils in various ratios.  All three base oils are compatible with each other and with other oils.  I would not expect any separation or precipitation from mixing.

[Дюпелёк 14 384]

TomNJ а вы куда пропали друг любезный???????????

[TomNJ 447]

If you mean me, I am here. 

[Дюпелёк 14 384]

TomNJ we are glad to see you again in our ranks

[Bonker 2 328]

2 часа назад, TomNJ сказал:

If you mean me, I am here. 

 

Can I ask you a few questions:
1. Is there a difference in performance between POE made from vegetable fat or animal. Which are preferable to use in engine oils?
2. which NPI is better to use POE with (low OR high). Is there a significant difference in application?
3. MOTUL wrote a long time ago that the tear strength of the oil film in mineral oils is 900 kg / sq. cm; PAO-6500 kg / sq. cm; ESTER-22000 kg / sq. cm. Were there such tests?
4. there is information on the market that it no longer makes sense to add POE to oils, since modern additive packages are soluble and compatible with group III and IV. Also, the issue of oil stability at high temperatures has now been resolved due to higher quality PAO. So it turns out that using expensive POE in engine oils no longer makes any sense. Industrial oils make sense, especially in formulations with PAO for gearboxes and wind turbines. Ie POE in engine oils is already marketing. Right or wrong?

[TomNJ 447]

Hi Bonker,

 

Happy to help:

 

1.   Just to be clear, esters are not made from the fats, but rather from the fatty acids that are derived from the fats.  So long as the acids are pure and saturated it does not matter where they came from.  Many acids from vegetable oils are unsaturated and these would give unstable esters, but the saturated ones are fine.  Also the number of carbons in the acid matters.  Saturated acids longer than about C10 can cause a freeze point in some POEs.

 

The most common vegetable based acids used in POEs are C8 and C10, usually sold as a mixture of the two called C8C10 acid, and this is derived from coconut or palm kernel oils.  Also C7 can be produced from castor oil.  C9 acid is the most common animal based acid.  C5, C7, C9, and some C8 acids are produced synthetically.

 

2.   Low NPI esters are more polar and if used in high doses may interfere with additives and cause excessive seal swell.  Croda recommends an NPI of greater than 100 for motor oils, but not all agree.  The most commonly used POE in PCMOs is TMP C8C10 which has an NPI of 58.  Crods’s Priolube 1973 has an NPI of 130 and so can be used in higher doses.

 

3.   There are bench tests for film strength such as the Falex test, but the conditions make a big difference.  Sometimes companies select conditions to favor their products.  In any case, film strength tests have not been correlated with PCMO performance.

 

4.   POEs do offer performance benefits to motor oils due to their high oxidative stability, additive solubility, seal swell balance, high lubricity, and low volatility.  They are used less now because most synthetics are based on Group III base oils which can solubilize additives and are seal neutral.  PAOs, however, benefit very much from the addition of a polar base oil, such as POE or AN.  The choice is up to the formulator.  POEs have a higher VI and lower volatility than ANs, but net treat cost is also a major factor.

[IliaP. 1 275]

TomNJ  thank You Sir for answers.

-Can You tell more info about other USA blender-Amsoil? in PDS they write number(Noack, CCS, MRV, and etc) that are better then Mobil1 or Pennzoil....

Contents in MSDS are proprietary and not available for us....

-Is it ok for Amsoil to be overpriced vs Mobil1vs Pennzoil? or in PCMO conditions they will work similar.... and there is no need to overpay for pao+III+esters like in Amsoil. Or based on GTL Quaker state/Pennzoil is optimal price/results for PCMO segment?

-What's your opinion on independent Amsoil tests? In each test Amsoil is the leader....

-Sae20 said that Pennzoil is number 1 in USA, 2-Mobil1. Is it true? GTL based products are gold standart? or Mobil1 GTL+PAO+II/III+esters are better?

-Do You support SAE20 universal advise of 10w-30 for summer and 5w-20 for winter, 0w-20 for siberian/north winter?

 

Изменено 27 мая 2020 пользователем IliaP.

[TomNJ 447]

On 5/26/2020 at 11:26 AM, IliaP. said:

TomNJ  thank You Sir for answers.

-Can You tell more info about other USA blender-Amsoil? in PDS they write number(Noack, CCS, MRV, and etc) that are better then Mobil1 or Pennzoil....

Contents in MSDS are proprietary and not available for us....

-Is it ok for Amsoil to be overpriced vs Mobil1vs Pennzoil? or in PCMO conditions they will work similar.... and there is no need to overpay for pao+III+esters like in Amsoil. Or based on GTL Quaker state/Pennzoil is optimal price/results for PCMO segment?

-What's your opinion on independent Amsoil tests? In each test Amsoil is the leader....

-Sae20 said that Pennzoil is number 1 in USA, 2-Mobil1. Is it true? GTL based products are gold standart? or Mobil1 GTL+PAO+II/III+esters are better?

-Do You support SAE20 universal advise of 10w-30 for summer and 5w-20 for winter, 0w-20 for siberian/north winter?

 

 

Amsoil markets its products based on a variety of laboratory bench tests, but often does not have certifications or approvals against industry specifications from the API, ACEA, or engine builders like most other brands.  Saying that a product is "recommended for" or "suitable for" or "formulated for" a certain use is not the same as having an approval or certification from an independent industry organization or engine builder.  Therefore it is not possible to compare Amsoil to other oils with respect to key performance parameters since there is no way to know if they actually ran or passed critically important engine tests.  It becomes a matter of trust, not science.

 

Most synthetic oils based in PAO, esters, GTL, AN, or Group III base oils will provide some level of higher performance and will cost more, but most people do not need higher performance unless they are extending drains, operating in severe conditions, or have a modified engine.  How much an oil is worth is different for each person.  I use synthetic oil because I extend my drains to one year, and I look for approvals that are relevant to my engines and operating conditions.  For me, any synthetic oil meeting SN+ or GF-6 is fine, but I want it certified, so I would not use Amsoil.  I know Amsoil sells some Group III based certified oils, but usually at a higher price.  I use Mobil 1 Extended Performance but would be just as happy with Pennzoil, Quaker State, or Castrol synthetic oils so long as they support extended drains.

 

Pennzoil is the largest selling motor oil in the USA, and I believe Mobil, Castrol, and Valvoline are in the top five.  As for which is best, that depends on how you define "best".  What is best for you may not be best for others.  GTL offers a nice set of properties, but I can't say it is better that PAO, ester, and Group III+.  It depends what you want.  And besides, base oils are only part of the performance equation as the additives are equally if not more important.  Rather than worry about what is in the oil, look for industry approvals and certifications to measure performance.

 

As for viscosity, I usually follow the engine manufacturer's recommendations, although I lean toward the heavy side.  I am fine with 0W and 5W oils, but want at least the high end of a 20, preferably a 30.  I don't push my engines.

[Poziom1989 10]

Hello I have a question. What does it look like with oil that contains PAO and ca. 5% POE is 8 years old, has it been properly stored and closed. Can you use it?

Изменено 5 июля 2020 пользователем Poziom1989

[TomNJ 447]

If properly stored and sealed I would use it.

[Хмыр 1 061]

TomNJ 

Томас приветствую Тебя! У меня есть вопрос. В Oilclub растет популярность присадок POE в моторных маслах в качестве присадок. Например, растет интерес к маслу Mobil JetOil 2, которое в дополнение к основе POE содержит противоизносную присадку Tricresyl phosphate (TCP). Хотелось бы узнать ваше мнение о возможном негативном влиянии ПТС на элементы поршневого бензинового двигателя.