Сложные эфиры в синтетических смазках. Вопросы к TomNJ

[Ё}I{ИК 399 563]

На ваши вопросы ответит Thomas Schafer.

 

 
38 лет работы в корпорации Hatco (в настоящее время это подразделение Chemtura/Lanxess). Последние 16 лет в Hatco занимал должность вице-президента по продажам и маркетингу в области синтетических смазочных материалов. Руководил исследованиями и разработками продуктов и усовершенствованием процессов, а также координировал производство и продажи с совместными предприятиями в Германии и Бразилии. Лично отвечал за коммерческую и военную авиационную продукцию в течение двадцати лет.
 
Tom американец и не знает русский язык, поэтому при формулировании вопросов, прошу по возможности использовать английский язык. Вы же можете воспользоваться Гугл-переводчиком (Вас много, а Томас у нас такой один, Sae20 c русскими корнями).
 
Вопросы задавайте любые, которые касаются именно синтетических масел и смазок.
Прошу учитывать временной лаг, личную жизнь человека и просто проявляйте уважение в любом общении.

Скрытый текст

 

Thomas Schafer will answer your questions.

Retired after 38 years at Hatco Corporation, a manufacturer and global leader in synthetic esters and synthetic lubricants (now a division of Chemtura/Lanxess). For the last 16 years at Hatco served as Vice President of Sales & Marketing, with global responsibilities in synthetic lubricants. He led product research and development and process improvement, and coordinated production and sales with joint ventures in Germany and Brazil. He was personally responsible for commercial and military aviation products for twenty years.
 
Tom does not know Russian, so when formulating questions, I ask you to use English if possible. You can use the Google translator (there are many of you, and Thomas is the only one with us, Sae20 with Russian roots).
 
Ask any questions that relate specifically to synthetic oils and greases.
Please take into account the time lag, the personal life of a person and just show respect in any communication.

 

 

Из-за чего происходит быстрое срабатывание TBN в маслах с эстерами

[Хмыр 1 057]

TomNJ Thomas, hi! I have a question. The popularity of POE additives in motor oils as additives is growing in Oilclub. For example, there is growing interest in Mobil JetOil 2 oil, which in addition to the POE base contains the anti-wear additive Tricresyl phosphate (TCP). I would like to know your opinion about the possible negative impact of TCP on the elements of a piston gasoline engine.

Изменено 16 сентября 2020 пользователем Хмыр

[TomNJ 447]

TCP is an anti-wear/mild EP additive.  My concern in an automotive engine is TCP's high phosphorus content (8.4% or 84,000 ppm) which could potentially affect the catalytic converter.  Modern engine oil specifications generally limit phosphorus to 0.08% or 800 ppm for this reason.  Most jet engine oils have 2 to 3% of TCP or 1,700 to 2,500 ppm phosphorus.  I don't know how much TCP the catalytic converter can tolerate, plus TCP could potentially interfere with the additive balance in the oil.

 

Personally I don't recommend adding jet engine oil to a modern balanced and approved motor oil.  Some small percentage would likely not do harm, but also likely not do good either.

[konung 6 795]

1 час назад, TomNJ сказал:

Personally I don't recommend adding jet engine oil to a modern balanced and approved motor oil. 

Some small percentage would likely not do harm, but also likely not do good either.

Can this be taken as a recommendation of oil with TCP for adding to disapproved and/or unbalanced oil,

to improve the properties of cheap oils?

[McFerkel 73]

3 часа назад, TomNJ сказал:

...  My concern in an automotive engine is TCP's high phosphorus content (8.4% or 84,000 ppm) which could potentially affect the catalytic converter...

And if the engine doesn't consume oil (derived from the words "at all ;)"). Can we (may we) totally disregard the factor?

[TomNJ 447]

23 hours ago, konung said:

Can this be taken as a recommendation of oil with TCP for adding to disapproved and/or unbalanced oil,

to improve the properties of cheap oils?

 

No, since I have never seen any data showing the effects of TCP in automotive engines.

[TomNJ 447]

20 hours ago, McFerkel said:

And if the engine doesn't consume oil (derived from the words "at all ;)"). Can we (may we) totally disregard the factor?

 

Possibly, but I have not seen any data concerning TCP in catalytic converters.  Keep in mind that the studies on the effects of phosphorus in catalytic converters were based on ZDDP.  While ZDDP and TCP have a similar percent of phosphorus, TCP is more volatile than ZDDP, having about half the molecular weight, so it is possible TCP can get to the catalytic converter even with little oil consumption.

[McFerkel 73]

Roger! At least "should be taken whith care".

Изменено 23 сентября 2020 пользователем McFerkel

[Хмыр 1 057]

22.09.2020 в 16:31, TomNJ сказал:

TCP is an anti-wear/mild EP additive.  My concern in an automotive engine is TCP's high phosphorus content (8.4% or 84,000 ppm) which could potentially affect the catalytic converter.  Modern engine oil specifications generally limit phosphorus to 0.08% or 800 ppm for this reason.  Most jet engine oils have 2 to 3% of TCP or 1,700 to 2,500 ppm phosphorus.  I don't know how much TCP the catalytic converter can tolerate, plus TCP could potentially interfere with the additive balance in the oil.

 

Personally I don't recommend adding jet engine oil to a modern balanced and approved motor oil.  Some small percentage would likely not do harm, but also likely not do good either.

 

Thomas, the possible negative effect of phosphorus on the catalytic converter  - is one of the obvious phenomena. I'm more interested in the possible destructive effects of TCP on engine components, including corrosion. For example, polishing of cylinders (destruction of honing), formation of strong acids due to interaction with water vapor condensate, corrosion of brass valve bushings, support bearings, corrosion of chrome coatings of rings, impact on NBR oil seals and PTFE polymers. Which of these is most likely? Your opinion.

Изменено 24 сентября 2020 пользователем Хмыр

[TomNJ 447]

2 hours ago, Хмыр said:

 

Thomas, the possible negative effect of phosphorus on the catalytic converter  - is one of the obvious phenomena. I'm more interested in the possible destructive effects of TCP on engine components, including corrosion. For example, polishing of cylinders (destruction of honing), formation of strong acids due to interaction with water vapor condensate, corrosion of brass valve bushings, support bearings, corrosion of chrome coatings of rings, impact on NBR oil seals and PTFE polymers. Which of these is most likely? Your opinion.

 

Having never used TCP in a automotive motor oil formulations or seen any data from its use in such oils, it is difficult to answer your questions.  I have formulated TCP into aviation and industrial oils for many years in oils intended for high temperature use (ester based synthetics), and have run many different wear, extreme pressure, oxidation, coking, rust and corrosion tests on these oils.  I have never identified any corrosion (ferrous, aluminum or yellow metals), oxidation, hydrolysis, or seal issues connected with its use at a 2 to 3% dosage.  I doubt its anti-wear properties are strong enough to polish cylinders, and some of its decomposition by-products are partial acid phosphates which are excellent rust inhibitors.  In addition to its anti-wear/mild EP properties, TCP also inhibits ferrous metals from catalyzing thermal breakdown, an important property in high temperature jet engine oils.

 

Of course automotive internal combustion engines present a different environment from aviation and industrial applications due to blow-by products, and without data I can only guess what effects it would have in these engines.  Since TCP is often added to piston aircraft oils, and causes no issues in aviation and industrial oils, my guess is it is safe in car engines at low dosages, except for the unknown possible catalytic converter issue or interference with additive balance.  I also doubt it would offer much if any benefit in a well formulated motor oil.

[Хмыр 1 057]

Thomas, thank you for your thoughts, they are very useful for our inquisitive minds.

[TomNJ 447]

Happy to help! 

[torcon 64 424]

TomNJ привет!  У меня есть банка Nyco Turbonycoil 600. 

 

У него состав такой же как у Mobil Jet Oil II?

Ester + TCP просто в другой банке?

[TomNJ 447]

Nyco Turbonycoil 600 is a 2nd Generation turbine oil that was approved under MIL-PRF-23699 in 1985.  All MIL-PRF-23699 approved jet turbine engine oils are based on POEs and most contain TCP.  I recall that there was one approved formulation that contained a slightly different phosphate ester additive instead of TCP but I do not recall which one.  The formulations differ mostly in the anti-oxidants and yellow metal corrosion inhibitors used.  The specifications are so tight that there is not a lot of room for variation.

[obezlo 0]

26.11.2020 в 06:48, torcon сказал:

TomNJ привет!  У меня есть банка Nyco Turbonycoil 600. 

 

У него состав такой же как у Mobil Jet Oil II?

Ester + TCP просто в другой банке?

Тоже хочу взять это масло,но вот такое ли оно как мобил джет , кто то реально подскажет ? 

[and2949 5 982]

obezlo Томас выше ответил же. Цитирую: "Составы отличаются в основном используемыми антиоксидантами и ингибиторами коррозии желтых металлов. Спецификации настолько жесткие, что не так много места для вариаций." Так что плюс-минус это практически одинаковые масла.