Сложные эфиры в синтетических смазках. Вопросы к TomNJ

[Ё}I{ИК 399 562]

На ваши вопросы ответит Thomas Schafer.

 

 
38 лет работы в корпорации Hatco (в настоящее время это подразделение Chemtura/Lanxess). Последние 16 лет в Hatco занимал должность вице-президента по продажам и маркетингу в области синтетических смазочных материалов. Руководил исследованиями и разработками продуктов и усовершенствованием процессов, а также координировал производство и продажи с совместными предприятиями в Германии и Бразилии. Лично отвечал за коммерческую и военную авиационную продукцию в течение двадцати лет.
 
Tom американец и не знает русский язык, поэтому при формулировании вопросов, прошу по возможности использовать английский язык. Вы же можете воспользоваться Гугл-переводчиком (Вас много, а Томас у нас такой один, Sae20 c русскими корнями).
 
Вопросы задавайте любые, которые касаются именно синтетических масел и смазок.
Прошу учитывать временной лаг, личную жизнь человека и просто проявляйте уважение в любом общении.

Скрытый текст

 

Thomas Schafer will answer your questions.

Retired after 38 years at Hatco Corporation, a manufacturer and global leader in synthetic esters and synthetic lubricants (now a division of Chemtura/Lanxess). For the last 16 years at Hatco served as Vice President of Sales & Marketing, with global responsibilities in synthetic lubricants. He led product research and development and process improvement, and coordinated production and sales with joint ventures in Germany and Brazil. He was personally responsible for commercial and military aviation products for twenty years.
 
Tom does not know Russian, so when formulating questions, I ask you to use English if possible. You can use the Google translator (there are many of you, and Thomas is the only one with us, Sae20 with Russian roots).
 
Ask any questions that relate specifically to synthetic oils and greases.
Please take into account the time lag, the personal life of a person and just show respect in any communication.

 

 

Из-за чего происходит быстрое срабатывание TBN в маслах с эстерами

[Valery... 1 272]

4 часа назад, and2949 сказал:

obezlo  Так что плюс-минус это практически одинаковые масла.

Только не токсично, как написано на одном сайте. Значит противоизносной TCP нет. Т.е. получаем за 1000 руб почти литр фактически ПОЕ. Которое на авито можно купить дешевле.

[and2949 6 105]

48 минут назад, Valery... сказал:

Только не токсично, как написано на одном сайте.

Лишь бы не на заборе...

[Valery... 1 272]

4 часа назад, and2949 сказал:

Лишь бы не на заборе...

Не понял реплику. Томас тоже сказал, что там нет TCP.

[Дюпелёк 14 416]

26 минут назад, Valery... сказал:

Не понял реплику. Томас тоже сказал, что там нет TCP.

Хде сказал?

[Valery... 1 272]

23 минуты назад, Дюпелёк сказал:

Хде сказал?

"I recall that there was one approved formulation that contained a slightly different phosphate ester additive instead of TCP but I do not recall which one." Вот его фраза. Но похоже, я её вырвал из контекста. И общий смысл немного другой. TCP скорее всего есть.

[Дюпелёк 14 416]

3 минуты назад, Valery... сказал:

"I recall that there was one approved formulation that contained a slightly different phosphate ester additive instead of TCP but I do not recall which one." Вот его фраза. Но похоже, я её вырвал из контекста. И общий смысл немного другой. TCP скорее всего есть.

Шо и треба докозати

[TomNJ 447]

The Nyco turbine oil will look much the same as the Mobil Jet II in analysis since they both meet MIL-PRF-23699 specification.  There are no metals and only phosphorus will be shown.  I am certain this oil contains a phosphate anti-wear additive but do not know if it is TCP or another variant.  Likely TCP given the age of the formulation, but I do not know for sure.

[Dumus 5 588]

TomNJ can I add 5% - 10% Mobil Jet or Nyco turbine to an automatic transmission to improve temperatures and improve physical performance? The viscosity is consistent, the composition is about the same. There will be no negative consequences?

[TomNJ 447]

Personally I would not do so.  POE jet turbine engine oils are not designed for automatic transmissions or to blend with ATFs, so there is some risk, such as incompatibility with additives or seals and changes to frictional properties.  While the risk may be small with small percentages, I have not seen any test results or other data that suggest a benefit to justify the risk.

[Просто Колян 528]

TomNJ Mr. Schafer, Good evening!

Could you please share information about your experience of using DOTP (Dioctyl terephthalate) in lubricants?

What advantages does it have over polyolesters, adipates, trimellitates? Thank you in advance!

[TomNJ 447]

I never formulated with Dioctyl Terephthalate.  We did use some ortho phthalates such as DIDP and DTDP in air compressor lubricants, but in general the phthalate family due to the aromatic ring suffered from low VI, high pour point, and lack of biodegradability compared to our other ester choices.  Terephthalates should have a higher VI and may be more suitable in synthetic lubricants than ortho phthalate esters.

[Bonker 2 331]

18.06.2022 в 15:37, TomNJ сказал:

I never formulated with Dioctyl Terephthalate.  We did use some ortho phthalates such as DIDP and DTDP in air compressor lubricants, but in general the phthalate family due to the aromatic ring suffered from low VI, high pour point, and lack of biodegradability compared to our other ester choices.  Terephthalates should have a higher VI and may be more suitable in synthetic lubricants than ortho phthalate esters.

 

Hi!

 

Let me ask you a couple of questions. 

 

1. For the manufacture of my oils, I use PAO and POE base oils in the formulations, but there is a desire to replace POE with AN. The only thing that is not completely clear to me yet is the moment with the possession of AN polarity. Mobil does not give a clear answer in its presentation. Independent manufacturers also do not give a clear answer. Do you know if AN has polarity or not? https://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/en/products/synthetic-base-stocks/alkylated-naphthalene

 

2. Now I use 10% POE in recipes. But, for example, MOTUL 300V 0w20 uses a combination of ~8% POE and ~5% AN.

 

 

What% POE and AN content do you think is better to choose from the suggested options (these are my test samples)

 

3. Tell me, is there any difference between POE, which are used in the production of industrial oils and POE, which are used in motor oils?

 

4. I produce products where PAO is 70% + POE 10%. For example, there is a recipe that is officially developed by INFINEUM and has official OEM approvals, i.e. this recipe has passed the entire range of bench and sea trials. Tell me, if I increase the ESTEREX NP343 in this formulation to 10%, what should happen so seriously in the formulation that it will not be able to pass the bench and sea trials again? How much can the addition of 10% POE to a typical formulation, relatively speaking, developed by INFINEUM, affect its characteristics?

 

 

Thank you for your answers.

 

 

[TomNJ 447]

Hi,

 

I’ll try to help.

 

1.      Since I am retired 15 years I never formulated with AN.  I would expect it to have some polarity due to the aromatic rings in the chemical structure, and the fact that it swells seals, but not as polar as most POEs.  Plus I have seen coking test data on ANs that are cleaner than PAO or Group IIIs, and this is likely due to it solubilizing break down products.

 

2.     Since I have not formulated with ANs this is difficult to answer.  The physical properties you show in your table are very similar.  ANs have a low VI and should only affect physical properties at low temperatures.  ExxonMobil claim benefits for PAO/AN compared to PAO/POE with respect to oxidation, hydrolytic stability, and wear, but I question some of this as I have seen data showing POEs to be more oxidatively stable and cleaner than ANs at high temperatures.  I would probably start with a mix of POE and AN at about a 5% level each to get some benefit from both.  My second choice would be 10% of either POE or AN. Please understand I have no data to support this so this is just a theoretical guess.

 

3.     There are many different POEs, each with a different structure designed for specific applications (my company made about 50 POEs).  For motor oils I would choose POEs that use long chain linear acids (C7 or higher) and no unsaturation.  This gives a good combination of lubricity, high VI, and oxidative stability.  The TMP C8C10 (Esterex NP343) is an excellent choice, as is NPG iC18 (Priolube 1973).

 

4.     I would not expect increasing the Esterex NP343 from 2% to 10% in PAO to cause performance problems, and could improve fuel efficiency and cleanliness.  However, any such change would void the approvals that come with the additive package.  You may want to ask this of Infineum as they may have tested different levels of POE in their additive package.

[Pinachet 162]

TomNJ, hello. In one of your posts, you wrote that you extended the oil change interval to a year. But there are several analyzes with a change interval of 2 years or more (at low mileage) that do not show oil degradation. Hence the question - is a replacement interval of 2 years acceptable with low mileage (2-3000), or do the analyzes "do not see" something?

[TomNJ 447]

I have two vehicles that only see about 2000 miles per year each, and I change the oil in these vehicles every two years.  I believe this is safe provided the car is taken on some long trips (over 20 miles) every month or two to bring the oil up to temperature and burn off gas and water.